mielniczenko >> funding for overheard by evan smith is brought to you by hillco health, mattsson mchale and also by mfi foundation, improving the quality of life within our community and also by the alice kleburg reynolds foundation. and viewers like you. >> i'm evan smith, his biographies include stevie ray vaughn, selena and willie nelson. his latest book the dallas cowboys, biggest, loudest, most loved, hated football team.

he's joe nisconaski. this is overheard. >> mosttamericans want a good job. >> not a llt of people were writing things in my voice. i realized had to do it for myself. >> he said kid, i love you because. >> we're a better country than we used to do. we have more to do, we need to get at it. >> i would do that for the buzz you get for working at the absolute top dollar. [laughter] ♪ >> joe nick, welcome. >> good to be here. >> congratulations on the book. i may get into shape by lifting weights with it, actually. >> it makes a great door stop. >> most hated? really? you want to defend that to me? >> no need to defend. the figures speak for themselves. they are most easily the most

easily hated franchise. >> how do you get to that? >> go first to the owner, jerry jones. when i was working on ttis a year and a half ago, they did a poll on the most hated sports figures. >> sports figure, not football? >> they were all nfl, number one al davis, number two, michael vick and jerry jones. >> al davis is dead. michael vick started playing well and much-beloved in philly now. >> and rehabilita 1978 when nfl films dubbed the cowboys america's team, immediately they were the most hated. you never saw reaction a articls written like in the "boston globe." and "the new york times.."

>> so it was the team, not texas they hated but the cowboys? >> it was definitely this franchise. texas has always had a reaction simila simil similarly. texans are not shy or introverted. >> the houston oilers were never as controversial, and now the houston texans. just this team? >> something you look at this, in 2012, the houston texans are a far superior team. >> they're an actual team. >> people are talking about them going to the super bowl. their fan base may trickle over across the sabine river and into parts of louisiana, just right across. i don't think it gets farther north than montgomery county.

it doesn't matter if you're not in houston. >> most hated to best-loved and you quantified the best-loved part. >> yes. the thing is, this is consistent. the fact that they're even in this discussion, whether they're the most hated, best-loved. i say they're both, and they are both, is really a tribute to the legacyyof the franchise, the marketing, and it is just the overall front office brilliance that is still carrying through. >> back -- all back to the founding and up through and including jerry jones who is rapping in doritos commercials

and whatever e is doing. jerry jones as a brand himself is part of the story. >> "fortune" magazine calls the del dallas cowboys, in 2012, the most valuable franchise in american sports. really, new job was to explain -- my job was to explain why. you go back to 1960 when not one, but two sons of two of the richest men on earth. h.l. hurt and clint merckinson. two of the sons had such football jones they both started the second regime, which is defined by jerry jones ownership is the brilliance there is the team hasn't -- they came and won

super bowls -- three super bowls in four years. off the charts. then ever since, ever since, jerry jones and jimmie johnson divorced [laughter] the team has been lousy. what jerry ones has done is to monetize the franchise as the league has been monetized. the league today is not just the premier sports league in the united states, it is one of the biggest entertainment businesses in the world. >> it is tickets, underwriting, partnerships, tv. unfortunately for dallas fans

they have to take pride in well, we're the most televised team in the nfl. 18 of the top 20 programs in the united states, in 2011 were nfl games. most of them with the dallas cowboys involved. so it is a different kind of player pride. but it is a lot to be proud of. they are still topic a of the conversation in the nfl. >> is there a counterintuitive argument to be made in favor of jerry jones? it is easy to pick on jerry jones, the guy from arkaasas that never really fit in. you have to give him credii. whether the team is successful or not, he transcends the stereotype in looking at the business. >> jerry jones has a lot to offer, i think. in looking at him as a character. and a public figure. if you are a fan of the first regime. if you followed the cowboys when tom landry was the coach, when

tech schram was the general manager and president. you probably still have a hard time accepting this guy from arkansas. that fascinates me. i was looking at discussions up.terday, fans will bring that an interloper, look what he did, he did not respect the legacy of this franchise. he has kept this team the topic of conversation, even when it hasn't done well. he's added value. there is no other celebrity owner in sports. the only person to compare with jerry jones wws geor georgesteinbrenngeorge steinbrenn steinbrenner. >> and he is gone. >> right. >> he has kept them relevant.

there is something wrong if you follow football and the cowboys are your team, when the best-known person on your football club is the owner and it is not a player.. >> although, you have to correct me if i'm wrong about this. psn't it true to tony romo's merchandise, at one point that was the most successful merchandise featuring any player's name or number in the nfl for a while. >> i don't know that. i didn't see that figure. tony romo is a great story right there. he's probably the best-known player, the quarterback of the team, he has a lot of charisma, i think, and he's very star-crossed. to watch this team today is a really difficult enterprise. >> you don't put him in the same category of aikman or staubach? >> no. in my mind there are three great quarterback in the history of the cowboy franchise, don m!3 c1

meredi meredith, roger staubach, and troy aikman. aikman and staubach because of winning the super bowls, but meredith sold this franchise to the city of dallaa,,and sold the team to the rest of the nfl. and more importantly, this is where i talked a lot about media in this. the fact that meredith went from being the quarterback of the dallas cowboys to one of the fouuding hosts of monday night football. >> dandy don. every time dandy don opened his mouth, he was selling the dallls cowboys with his accent. he was who he is. you got to understand, you can't discount monday night football for what it was. this was before cable television. >> yeah. >> this was the last time the nation gathered arrund the electronic camp fire every week. it was on monday night. and tuesday morning, if you went

to work, if you went to school, even if you didn't follow football, you had to fake it and say something about monday night football. >> so monday night football as a franchise and meredithhafter his playing days were over were as much a myth and legend to the cowbo cowboys? >> i figured this out, two great sales associated with -- -- with this franchise. one is don meredith who learned and greeted customers.& jerry jones dad was a showman. he is brought up doing what he was taught to do and doing it

effective effectively. >> come back to romo. assuming meredith, staubach, aikman is so superlative. he's no gary hogobu. he is not a fly-by guy that was on there -- >> romo is really good. but you got to win playoff games, one. but actually, the quarterback with the better stats is danny white, who unfortunately, tried to follow -- >> forgotten in history. >> had to follow roger staubach. they came very close, the first two years that the team -- he was running the team, you know, they went to the conference championship. >> football has obviously changed. the fundamentals of the games of football are the same fundamentals. throw the ball, run the ball, catch the ball, kick the ball. the circumstance that has grown-up around it is vastly different. how has that impacted the team, beyond making it successful

financially. >> you look at the 1960s with the cowboys and the oilers started up. the nfl didn't have a league-wide television contract& every team made their television deal. there wasn't a lot going on. one team. the baltimore colts had a cheerleader. the washington team had a band and a lot of spirit. there was not much more going on other than a game. as television latched on to the nfl and really televised it, as the afl, they were the first league with a televisionwide contract, they were the first league to broadcast in color, they were the first league ith multiple camera shots. by the time theyymerged when lamar hunt and tex schram had 1 secret meetings, it is the dallas principals again. they created the merger of the nfl and the afl.

when that happened the dallas cowboys were sitting in the campers . all of this happened, whether it was the multiple cameras, cheerleaders. no one sold cheerleaders and pageantry like the dallas cowboys. >> no team -- maybe with the exception of the laker girls, no team with the -- >> evan, it is not even close. the laker girls, they didn't have their own -- not one, but two made for tv movies, which was a new concept in the late 70s. the first dallas cowboy cheerleader movie became the highest rated made foo television film ever until the late '80s, '90s. >> and then more recently the stadium arms race. look what jerry built up there for the new cowboy stadium. >> jerry has built the most

fabulous football palace that will ever exist. a palace that transcends the dallas cowboys. >> a billion 4. taxpayers through n 350 million. didn't ave a problem with that. now it is a multiple facility that is going for all the different events. in a way, that makes the cowboys not part of the conversation. and the interesting thing, i found, yes, as a building of the stadium is something, to me, it is as far as the old texas brag, it may be the last gasp of "ours is bigger" and it is not unlike the san francisco giants' baseball park. there is nothing green about it or recyclablee it is like a '61 cadillac.

>> a throwback. >> it is fabulous. a great place to take a tour. a lot of money being generated by tours. great place to watch high school football. where all the championship games are held in texas. college games, doing soccer. a terrible place to hear a music concert because the sound is horrendous. the interesting thing is as much of a big deal as this is, it is about jerry jones' time. three years, maybe one more year, if they don't deliver this year, the natives are already pret pretty restless. >> as it is, if you want to see a great sports team, you can walk across the street and see the rangers. it has to drive him crazy. >> it has to with the number of sell-outs as they've done. >> valuable player of the texas

rangers they said, we'll never replace thh cowboys, but to bee honest watching sports in this market since the '50s, they may do it this year, especially if the cowboys don't start delivering. this is really put up or shut up time. >> the first game of the season that we're sitting here talking in, they beat the super bowl champion new york giants. >> they looked great. and then the next week looked like the team last year, which depending on which week you watch, either greaaness or, you know, mediocrity on parade. they're a soap opera, i love that martelas bennett said, i loved playing in dallas, but the drama. and the drama is what drives this team. it drives this franchise. and in that respect, jerry jones is the real j.r. ewing. he's almost lovable and

huggable. more so than j.r. >> almost. >> but, yeah, i mean, he's -- i would not want to sit across from the negotiating table. >> before -- i want to take the last couple of minutes to talk about music, on this, finally, what will he think of this book? this is not an auuhorized history and not a book written with the cooperation of the broad sense of the institution. >> i need to say, though, the cowboys were kind enough to open up their archives, thaa is where i got the story. i spent three months going through scrap books. dallas cowboys you need to digitize your archives. they're giving me the nickel and dime. we don't have money for it. >> really? >> honestly. i made requests to interview mr. jones, insiders told me in advance, he doesn't have anything to gain from this. gentleman from the star telegram

fort worth interviewed me and said jerry's not going to like this book. i said, really, why. a musician i know had read it, 1 didn't know he was a voracious reader. he said, you know, you make jerry jones almost human. >> that is why he won't like it? >> no, no. the reporter said he's not goin& to like it because you said he bought the team, a legacy. it is true. he built upon increased value. he said you used the word reptilian. >> does he know what you meant? >> i was trying to get into the head of his critics and where he's got redeeming value. he's put himself out there willingly. he knows bullets will come. frankly, i think if anything, i treated him fairly. >> it is a fair treatment.

it is honest, but fair. >> i'm trying -- i didn't have an agenda going in, other than to figure out what is the dang deal with dallas. i grew up in fort worth. all your life, no matter what you did or how well you did it, there is always something newer or brighter in dallas. >> we now review the bias. >> no, no, no. that was a question that has driven me all my life. how can one define dallas? this is a story about sports and culture. >> yeah. >> thii franchise defines dallas just as dallas defines this franchise. it is complementary all the way. and if dallas is a market center, dallas is a can-do city. dallas is a business-first city. and this reflects back on the cowboys. the cowboys got dallas through integration and segregation. they're the model in dallas, texas of integration and races working together cooperatively.

>> yeah. >> and there is -- they -- this franchise got dallas over the kennedy assassination. when they got good they got the rest of the country over the kennedy assassination. they sold dallas to the world. the theory of dallas created by david jacobs. he had never been to dallas. all he knew were two things, the dallas cowboys and the dallas cowboy cheerleaders. from that -- >> biggest franchise. >> in a globally popular, it all goes back to the cowboys. i'm here to give them respect. >> well ---3 c1 >> and grudging admiration from a guy from fort worth. then again, all the great sports writers that covered the cowboys, all the greats that began with came from fort worth too. >> i appreciate the hand for my

idols. we have three minutes left. i have to move you to music. you wrote books about stevie ray vaughn and selena, and willie nellon who is with us. nelson is kind of like the cowboys, he's a big figure, almost too big to get your arms around. any similarities in trying to tackle the topics in the subject of books? >> thereewere less similarities than i would think would be normal. because i'm trying to talk about an institution, it doesn't live and breathe. it is a different kind of character. people kept asking are you going to write after willie? >> it would seem like a comedown to write about some other guy. >> in the case of willie nelson yes, the only thing bigger in texas than willie nelson was the dallas cowboys. the light went on above my head and said let's go drill down

deep and go see what we can find. >> is that really the origin of this book? is that what happened? >> i just accepted the role of guest curator at the bob bullock museum to curate on football. >> i was looking for a book. knew there wasn't a music person. it got me off from doing music as a way to understand culture and use sports. high school football is one way. you want to understand texas and texans. six-man, 5a, it doesn't matter. you will learn about who texans are as a people. if you want to see the pinnacle of texans' expression as farras what sports means to them, the dallas cowboys, that blue star with the white border is a brand that is globally known, and just right behind coca-cola. that is some kind of brilliance to have that blue star instead of the old cowboy figure they used to have. there is a reason why the cowboys are the most valuable

franchise in america in sports. i would like to think i told those stories. >> what will you do next? >> boy, i don't know. my inclination -- >> what could be as big as willie nelson and the cowboys? >> i don't think. my problem is i could think big if i do another book like this. all i sudden a look around houston and austin, and trying on to find out, these are texas stories i have grown-up with all my life that i think deserve some really deep thinking and deep drilling. i want to wallow in it. austin, i'm a little wearr. the fact is, where we're taping, it is the coolest city in the world. maybe a need to jump off and explain how it got that way. >> the light should go off now in your head now, actually. >> right. >> and i'm particularly fascinated with houston because it is a global melting pot. it has as much going for it as

l.a. or new york or any other city in the united states, but the great thing about it is, it is all under the ruu and you have to look hard. >> i think -- you didn't ask -- austin, do the austin book. how awesome. how austin became austin. that would be a hell of a book. >> there is a good story to be told. 1848, there were more printing presses than churches. that is what separated austin from other cities in the united states at that time. >> there may be. >> that may be so. >> thank you for being here. >> joe nick. >> thank you being here. >> thank you. >> we would love to have you join us in the studio, visit klru.org/overheard to hear interviews, archive of past episodes and list of guests.

>> i tell you what a $9 miller light is a tough thing to swallow. >> yeah! [laughter] >> even when you are real thirsty. -p♪. >> even when you are real thirsty. ♪ >> funding for overheard with evan smith is provided in part by hillco partners, texas governance affairs consultancy and hillco health and by the mattsson mchale foundation in support of public television and mfi foundation improving the quality of life in our community, and also the alice